Flood Rescue National Enhancement Project Workshop

[Tony Ferrari]

Very short notice but you may be interested in the attached.



Flood Rescue National Enhancement Project Workshop



Reading Innovation Centre



22nd June 2009



Although it states the event is for LRF Chairs/Secretariats and Cat 1 and 2 responders, it does also make reference to the Voluntary Sector.



Whilst 4x4 Response is not a "usual suspect" when it comes to flood rescue, we clearly have a capability in floods that is unlikely to have been recognised in this context.



Even if we are unable to gain any places, perhaps a few emails from us will highlight our potential to the project.



Sadly I am unable to attend that day but if anyone else is interested, I would suggest they give it a try, they can only say no!

[Pete Hallett]

Tony,

Would it be possible to swing it from another angle.....



I work full time for the Ambulance service(who i beleive are eligable as delegates) and also a member of wessex 4x4!!



Pete :D

[BobWessex]

Hi Tony,



Wessex 4x4 Response is represented on Wilts Fire Brigade Flood Search & Rescue group.



Primarily as a support resource.



We were also on alert last weekend for potential heavy rain/flooding in Somerset, and of course many teams were involved in the floods of 2007 & 2008. So I think we can fairly say that 4x4 Response teams do get involved responding to floods

[Tony Ferrari]

I wasn't saying we don't get involved :D



But I'm not sure the people behind the National Enhancement Project would automatically think of use as a resource in the Voluntary sector. I'm sure they would think more of SARA, RNLI etc i.e. those with boats, whereas we can mobilise much quicker and get in before things are so bad that a boat is needed.





And of course some 4x4s could get places a boat might have trouble....



Like this one :lol:

[BobWessex]

The thing is that there is a depth of water which is really too shallow for boats, just as there is a depth which is too deep for vehicles. The hard thing is getting the message across that they need to look at the appropriate resource.

[nick cox]

Don't forget the in-between, Easter 98 floods i remember driving across a car park in a boat closley followed by a disco! :D

[Dave Northants]

at our Northants group we have had some sobering advice given to us about driving through, and dealing with floods from the UKOS team.



from the infections gained from coming into contact with sewage to dropping down invisible man hole covers, as well as the obvious currents.



theres lots to think about with this topic.

[Pete Hallett]

I reckon this disco i saw at Beaulieu would be good for the floods aswell.........might even float with those tyres...lol :lol: :lol: :lol:

[BobWessex]

at our Northants group we have had some sobering advice given to us about driving through, and dealing with floods from the UKOS team.



from the infections gained from coming into contact with sewage to dropping down invisible man hole covers, as well as the obvious currents.



theres lots to think about with this topic.



Yeap that's why in floods you really need to have a walker in front of the vehicle, ideally a Firefighter or similar in a full dry suit. If you can't see the road you don't know what may be (not) under the water.

[Tony Ferrari]

I fully endorse what has been said:



The following is from the National Flood Forum



"Don’t try and walk or drive through

floodwater – six inches of fast flowing

water can knock you off your feet and

two feet of water will float your car.

Manhole covers may have come off

and there may be other hazards you

can’t see."



Many people forget the bit about floating cars, That "two feet" is 609mm and whilst most Land Rovers for instance can wade to 500mm, a 2" suspension lift increases that in theory to 550mm and the addition of a snorkel can give drivers a false sense of security. Yet you may be (quite literally) only a couple of inches away from floating.



Having experienced this myself fording a river in a Ford Ranger, it is serious as you have totally lost control of the vehicle. I was lucky enough to regain grip and drive out but it could have been worse.



The subject of flood driving is something I have been concerned about for some time as how many of us have any training in this area, indeed what training exists. Most flood training concentrates on working in or from boats or rope work when in the water, I am not currently aware of anything specifically geared towards vehicle use. Maybe as we grow as a network we can get to the stage where we might commission our own national training in this area and seek to get it accredited. Maybe one day?

[Mick Ghost]

Sustained driving in flood waters should, IMHO, be limited to wheel hub depth (about 16" in most cases). Whilst 4x4s can (and do) go deeper, long-term submersion increases the likelihood of water seeping into the various oils, to the detriment of their lubricating properties ...



Much deeper than this and you're into boat territory anyway!

[Dave Northants]

great Idea Tony about the training. I must admit to loving driving my land rover though deep water but after the talk to our group it was clear and very sensible that theres so much that can catch out the unwary. Any Training that can highlight the dangers would be very worthwhile.

[BobWessex]

The other thing to bear in mind when operational, is that any risk you put yourself to, is also a risk that you are inflicting on your passenger who may be a member of the emergency services or possibly an evacuee/member of the public.



In other words err on the side of caution.

[Dave Hudson]

The other thing to bear in mind when operational, is that any risk you put yourself to, is also a risk that you are inflicting on your passenger who may be a member of the emergency services or possibly an evacuee/member of the public.



In other words err on the side of caution.





I agree. Your first priority must be safety of your passenger/s and your safety.

Then bystanders, followed by the environment.



The whole point, is to get from A to B as safely as possible, whilst balancing the need for speed and then being available for another response. :)

[nigel leyland]

Just read this thread after recieving a stanby at the weekend for flood duties...........



While we do not have available any identified training facilities as far as I know we do have some experience and knowledge amognst the various groups.....



So lets cascade...... :D



4x4RNE opt for diesel engines preferably with a snorkle and lift when fording any water.........simple steps to redice the likelyhood of an engine failure.



I'm well familiar with missing manhole lids from my previous employment and so I'd just like to outline the following as a heads up.



Often when severe flooding overloads drains or worse sewers the pressure generated can lift even the heaviest of manhole lids, they often trap enough air beneath them which allows them to float away and leave the hole open....the pressure has now released and flow resumes, which means if you are unlucky enough to drop into one there is a very real chance of being drawn through the system or trapped against the pipe opening underwater. Even dropping a wheel into one at normal "bow wave" speeds could well terminate ones suspension!



There are also likely to be other hazards hiden beneath the water.....a good knowledge of the unflooded road is a definate advantage but not fool proof!



note; wading through a puddle of still water is not the same as wading throught a flow of water.....!



4x4RNE have also used unflooded greenlanes thus avoiding wading to complete the task........obviously, one needs to assess the viability and sustainability for each situation and again here, good local knowledge is an advantage.



I hope something there may be helpfull to someone.



Nigel.

[Teresa Herefordshire]

note; wading through a puddle of still water is not the same as wading throught a flow of water.....!





Nigel.



And driving through a flow of water crossing a road with abandoned cars drifting towards you, while trying to work out where the edge of the road is, is very different from doing it for fun on a lane. I only did it once in the July 2007 floods, in a petrol 4x4, and it was scary stuff.

And I was amazed at those who abandoned their cars in it, then took their shoes and socks off to walk barefoot through the water to save their shoes! :shock:



A few hours after I got through there was a landslide leaving a pile of soil complete with trees about 20 feet high right across the road. Luckily no-one was under it when they moved it days later.