National heads up

[BobWessex]

Bob,

As discussed, I've passed your request onto Govt Office NW and they will pass your offer to the SCG, who will contact you directly if they need your assistance.



Kind regards,

Rob



Rob Doran

Community Resilience Policy Manager

Civil Contingencies Secretariat



I will keep you all informed as /when I hear more

[nigel leyland]

Looks like you've been busy again Bob, would you like to ellaborate on the nature of the request for the sake of clarity?



Nigel.

[BobWessex]

Hi Nigel,



I simply asked the Cabinet Office if there was a requirement for 4x4 Response vehicles in Cumbria and other areas.

Hi Rob



Is there a need for a 4x4 Response in any of the areas currently suffering from floods either now or as the waters recede?.





No point in them having our details, if they don't pass them on.



A little nudge never hurts :lol: :lol: :lol:



Seriously though some CAT1 responders have a blind eye where the voluntary sector is concerned, especially if they've never used a particular organisation. Luckily we have contacts at Central Government who seem happy to SUGGEST that we should be used.



If we go back to the 2007 floods in Gloucestershire the Red Cross called us as the County EPO was somewhat anti-4x4.



The guidance to the CCA says



14.3 The Regulations require Category 1 responders to have regard to the activities of certain voluntary organisations in the course of carrying out their emergency and BC planning duties. The Regulations provide that Category 1 responders must only have regard to those voluntary sector bodies which carry out activities in the area for which the responder is responsible.



14.4 Voluntary organisations are those bodies whose activities are carried out not for profit and which are not public authorities or local authorities. Under the Regulations, they become relevant voluntary organisations if they carry on any activities for the purpose of preventing emergencies, reducing, controlling or mitigating the effects of emergencies, or taking other action in connection with emergencies. This is a broad definition that will capture charities and other voluntary organisations.



14.5 This does not mean that Category 1 responders should work only with those voluntary sector organisations established solely for the purpose of working in the field of civil protection. Few voluntary sector bodies are established for the sole purpose of responding to emergencies. Most will have a partial interest tangential to their main business. Nevertheless, these voluntary sector organisations must be factored into local civil protection arrangements where they may have a role to play in dealing with an emergency.



That doesn't mean that we have to be called or used BUT does mean that our use (along with any/all other voluntary agencies) has to be considered.

[nigel leyland]

Thanks for the reply Bob,



I as much suspected that the above was the case, and as you say a little nudge at the right time never hurts :D



Having read a report from a friend in the area (Phil on LRB) it seems the effects are much more widespread than those being reported by the media and one can't help but suspect resorces must be somewhat stretched at this time.



Keep up the good work Bob... :D



Nigel.

[dave-freeman]

Thanks for putting up that bit from CCA, it's whats been in the back of my head that it does exist but not too sure about it. As far as the situation in Cumbria is concerned, I have had contact from Ian in Yorks and he has been attempting to get our foot in the door with regard to offering assistance. Unfortunately neither of us have heard anything back.

[nigel leyland]

Although it is appropriate for Bob to drop hints at a National Level......I don't think it will be productive for just any group to offer assistance my reasoning being....



"14.3 The Regulations require Category 1 responders to have regard to the activities of certain voluntary organisations in the course of carrying out their emergency and BC planning duties. The Regulations provide that Category 1 responders must only have regard to those voluntary sector bodies which carry out activities in the area for which the responder is responsible."



North West Group yes, offer assistance with the backing of NE & YL if needs be but it should not be Ian or myself as it is not our area and offers could possibly dismissed for that reason.



Nigel.

[dave-freeman]

I have been offering for the past few days but getting absolutely no response. Ian passed on his details and mine so they were aware of both our groups and the possibilities that were open to them. He seemed to have a different route of contact to me. I am only getting in touch with EPO's as I believe we can now offer some form of service. Previously this wouldn't have been the case.

[BobWessex]

Hi Dave/ all.



It's that first contact that is always the hardest and unfortunately much will depend on perceptions and previous experience of the EPO etc.



With the Cabinet Office and others now on board I hope that 'suggestions from upon high' will gradually filter down.

[nigel leyland]

I appreciate that sometimes it can be almost impossible to get a reply Dave, and indeed I've hit the same brick walls here in our region...........but I cannot see how it would be helpfull if groups from all over the country begin contacting EPO's or others outside their own region, it surely just looks a tad less than professional given that there is a group operrating in the area and indeed may even be counter productive! Ok if you have a "contact" then pass the contact on to the the relevent group and offer as much "assistance" as is possible, if needed.

Even if I did happen to have a "contact" in another area I tend to simply inform them of the local group, for initial contact or faililing that the national for further information, but I do not make the initial offer of assistance from our group.



If you're at a loss to find the correct contact I'm sure a quick line to Bob or Tony would soon develop the correct information or at least the correct direction to look!



Nigel.

[John Potts]

I agree Nigel. If nothing else, it smacks of 'ambulance chasing'.

[nigel leyland]

I didn't want to say as much John, but yes it could very well be viewed in that light, also worth note is the possibility that if a number of groups place forth offers, the chances of causing confusion increase, with the possible conclusion of the wrong group being called out and taking much longer to deploy while the local group is sat at home twiddling there fingers!



4x4RNE have already previously been called out to the north of Scotland inadvertantly, fortunately we were able to put the caller in contact with the group they where looking for. :)



Nigel.

[lee sund]

i think one of the problems we have as a group is that we operate locally and we need to be seen more of a multi reginal org.

as said before, if managers have a direct line to a hight rank official and on GOOD terms then make a call, if not then the Main body should be the point of contact.



One thing controlers will not want is phone call after phone call by member/groups trying ( with good intensions ) to contact them.



On another point of the image of the response group :!:

The well equiped disco on our main web site has an illegal number plate on the front, this may seam petty i know but as things go we need to be seen as profesional/legal at ALL times.

[Tony Ferrari]

I think it should be made clear that Bob was acting as Chairman of the National 4x4 Response Network and making use of a contact we both have at the Civil Contingencies Secretariat (CCS) within the Cabinet Office.



It is encouraging that his response was to immediately pass the offer of assistance to the Strategic Coordinating Group (SCG) i.e. the Multi-Agency Gold Command for Cumbria.



This was not done to usurp the local group as any initial response would be always via them, with mutual aid from other groups being brought in as required. This is where we as a Network can work together and provide a single voice for our groups. The danger is that two or more (local-ish) groups offering help can be seen by the powers that be as unprofessional as we "clearly can't get our act sorted".



In the event that the CCS or the SCG had said yes, then the request would have been channeled through North West 4x4 Response.



Getting that first Contact is vital and as we are seeing, can be downright difficult to achieve. No doubt (and sadly) the local response is likely to be along the lines of "who are these unknown, untrained, inexperienced people?" We are always in danger of being lumped in with what is known half jokingly with the Emergency Planning profession as "nutters in Hi-Viz". In any major incident they always come out of the woodwork and whilst many are no doubt well intentioned, no Cat 1 Responder wants the potential liability of using someone or a group that indeed turns out to be "unknown, untrained and inexperienced".



If however someone then pipes up "No they must be OK, the Cabinet Office is telling us they are available" then it can only help.



Whilst we are a locally based service, we do have the ability to work co-operatively across areas (as was shown in the 2007 floods) but must approach the key responders in the correct way.



I would suggest that any group that is close by should always make an offer of assistance through the coordinator of the local group not to the statutory responders, so as to avoid duplication and/or confusion or indeed the perceived unprofessionalism noted above. That group must then take primacy and if resources are stretched, then ask other groups for assistance, which can be coordinated through the Trustees.



One thing that may well count against us is that since the Pitt Review into the 2007 floods, huge emphasis has been placed on formal flood rescue training and Fire and Rescue Services especially have invested heavily in both training and equipment. As we in 4x4 Response do not have this type of background, we are unlikely to be used in the imediate response and to be honest this is most probably good, as the dangers of flood water can easily be underestimated.



Sure we can provide essential back up services, outside of the immediate flood areas but again our transport and logistics capbilities will most probably not be known to most responders. After all we are still very much the new kids on the block. You will no doubt have seen the RNLI as well as Mountain Rescue Teams (most of the Cumbria Teams now do fast water rescue training and have boats) in action in Cumbria, they have 185 and 63 years respectively of history behind them! OK in the modern day, ideas and concepts get adopted far quicker with modern media and communications but it may still take several years (if ever) before we become a household name.

[robin-baldwin]

As Tony and Bob are both saying, there is a problem getting our name known in the right places.

In Norfolk, despite regular meetings with the County and Borough EMOs, there has been a recent exercise, Exercise Bunyip, to test the County Flood Plan. This has been tested in several Boroughs so far but we have only been involved with the test exercise in my own local Borough. We just have to keep plugging away and talking to as many people in high places a possible.

[nigel leyland]

I think you've just reitterated what I wanted to say Tony, but somewhat more elequently..... :D



Nigel.

[BobWessex]

I was speaking to Avon & Somerset Police Ops planning today, after 7 years and mainly after working in the snow last year, they now have our contact details on their system for when they have "a ghostbuster's moment" we all know the one. "Who you gonna call?".



Mind you it appears that we're not the only ones I know that our colleagues in RAYNET also get frustrated when they're not called.



Having said that on the weekend of 14th November when Dorset was being hammered, the Police called and asked if we were available should things get bad, we also had an E-mail from Government Office South West so yeap we will get there.



To add to Tony's comment's and demonstrate how things can vary between neighbouring LRFs in Wiltshire we have just signed an MOU with the Fire Service but have no formal agreement with the Police. Their operational plan says quite rightly that we can be called as a voluntary agency via the EPO.



The thing that I have to stress both from a Wessex and National perspective. It has taken seven years to reach the stage that we now at in this part ot the world.



It is worth noting that we now have 'friends in the right places' and believe me Tony and I will keep making use of that.



I am also sure that those attending the Emergency Services Show will know something about us before they leave.

[mattgreen]

Some good photo's and details of what's going on in the Lake District:-



http://tr.im/FFeX - Cockermouth MRT site





http://tr.im/FFcH - and some interesting incident reports from Ambleside MRT - lots of 4x4 requirements.

[Mike G7HEN]

Photos from Roger Hiley

http://www.loweswatercam.co.uk/091119_N ... _Gales.htm (http://www.loweswatercam.co.uk/091119_November_Gales.htm)

http://www.loweswatercam.co.uk/091120_N ... ales_2.htm (http://www.loweswatercam.co.uk/091120_November_Gales_2.htm)

[Jim Wallace]

Those photos realy show how bad it was nice bit of commentry as well

[Tony Ferrari]

Interesting to note that the MRT standard equipment clearly now includes dry suits and canoe helmets. Something I noticed when in the Lakes last month as I always tend to buy the MRT annual reports, that more groups have purchased boats and water rescue training.



This seems to be a reaction to 2005, although Carlisle got all the publicity, flooding was widespread across Cumbria.



An idea of how widespread the flooding is this time can be got from here:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/cumbria/hi/front_page/newsid_8369000/8369927.stm



Pictures not just of Cockermouth but also Keswick, Patterdale, Braithwaite, Bowness, Langdale, Ambleside...



The shot of the car park at Miller Bridge, Ambleside brought it home to me, it was only a month ago when I went up to collect my Defender from Lakeland Land Rover, we stayed at a B&B only 300m from there and walked through the car park each morning to walk the dog in the nearby park.

[mattgreen]

Interesting to note that the MRT standard equipment clearly now includes dry suits and canoe helmets. Something I noticed when in the Lakes last month as I always tend to buy the MRT annual reports, that more groups have purchased boats and water rescue training.



Our local MRT (Edale MRT) now have "swift water rescue technicians" - from talking to them it appears they were being called to more river/stream/reservoir rescues (you wouldn't believe how many reservoirs we have in the Peak) and decided to up their game.



In the Sheffield 2007 floods they were out in urban flooding which brought some nasty surprises like raw sewerage, live high-voltage cables and floating cars!