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  #11  
Old 11-01-2016
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Originally Posted by m3dic View Post
Surely it would be a choice thing? If a responder wants to be a full responder for more than one group and understand they need to pay and be active etc why not let them and actively allow it?
Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B.

Last edited by Simon Bentley; 12-01-2016 at 01:07 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2016
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Originally Posted by Simon Bentley View Post
Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B. There
Surely the only reason a person would join more than one group is that the first group is not doing enough to keep them busy... so the chances of availibilty issues is almost nil, and even if they did get a clash, it's no different to them being out shopping etc and unable to attend a call out anyway, its just just in this case they are on another call out with another club.

Surely the only real issue is being double insured, so you could end up with the two insurers arguing over who should pay out. So basically it is very important that if you are with two groups, and for some reason you are on a call with both, you must choose and stick to working with the same group for the entire call out.

We are with other non-related clubs, all of which have public liability insurance, and also have it with our business insurance, and house insurance, in fact I sometimes wonder just how many times my wife and I are insured for the same event should the worst happen. The thing is, if a ferret mauls an old lady and steals her dentures, I wouldn't think of claiming I was out with 4x4Response... now which ferret club could prove interesting!
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2016
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Chris Paul m3dic is offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Bentley View Post
Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B. There
Sorry I don't agree as Clive said it would be the same as if you were on holiday etc.

If both groups were to be deployed to the same incident (which would be rare as I am sure one would be deployed and ask for mutual aid from the other) as long as they were an active responder and were working to the rules of the group they were responding for where is the issue?

Some groups are incredibly social and do social days/nights away if a responder was a member of two groups there is an instant benefit.

Can I ask is it currently not allowed by 4x4Response UK or is it just up to the individual groups?
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2016
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Individual groups make the call.

Operationally availability depends how groups collate, for instance Yorkshire have an online system for responders to indicate their availability for up to 2 weeks (just upped from 1 week) ahead, other groups use sms responder (or similar) and ask at the point of need.

If groups were to extend social and event support type invites to neighbouring groups then the non callout arrangements would not require membership of more than one group and operationally mutual support arrangements could cover responders living in border areas (YR does this with Mitts for a NHS trust that straddles the border).
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2016
nigel leyland nigel leyland is offline
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It's not often I isit thee boards these days, let alone post. So you can take that as just how exasperated I am to find this old chestnut still being debated all these years later!

Given the following:
1. You are a registered/qualified Responder.
2. You are covered by either the RUK4x4 or your own Groups Ins policy.
3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers)

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

Given that doing so would:

1. Possibly incur a double insurance premium.
2. Definitely corrupt head count statistics nationally.
3. Likely promote confusion for controllers at the most demanding call out periods.

If there is some benefit to be gained from multiple membership for Group or individual Responder please enlighten us.....
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2016
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Clive Slade Clive Slade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel leyland View Post
It's not often I isit thee boards these days, let alone post. So you can take that as just how exasperated I am to find this old chestnut still being debated all these years later!

Given the following:
1. You are a registered/qualified Responder.
2. You are covered by either the RUK4x4 or your own Groups Ins policy.
3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers)

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

Given that doing so would:

1. Possibly incur a double insurance premium.
2. Definitely corrupt head count statistics nationally.
3. Likely promote confusion for controllers at the most demanding call out periods.

If there is some benefit to be gained from multiple membership for Group or individual Responder please enlighten us.....
Well the first benefit which is not exactly hard to see is, of being a member of multiple groups, means you get to be a member of their forum/news letters and events, so get to find out/indulge in group activities, which may not actually be dirrectly related to actual call outs, E.G. training and socialising. We do lots of community related events with SE4x4R, which are not anything to do with group statistics or confusing a controller. A decent 4x4R group is not all about callouts, its about socialising, getting to know your team members and learning who has your back before things get needy. Some people may want to indulge in the activities of multiple groups, especially when living on or near group boarders, or as I have seen, being in a group that does not really do anything, so want to be a member of a neighbouring group that is highly active.

Lets face it, the overall point for doing 4x4R is to help out in dire situations but get some enjoyment out of doing it, otherwise what is the point of all the associated costs of being a member, like clothing, lights, etc, I would be better off donating the money I have spent directly to a charity and saving myself the hassle.

With regards to statistics... whoopy do... who really cares if some statistician gets his/her numbers wrong, nothing new there! We are volunteers, with no contractual obligations, so the best you can ever do is make a guess at how many are actually available at any specific moment in time anyway.

So really it comes down to just one thing, as far as I can see... insurance... which can be resolved by just choosing a group to respond to for a specific event, and only working for that group controller for the duration of that event. In Kent, this happens regularly with joint callouts between KSAR and SE4X4R, where there are several people who are joint members of both groups, but have to choose who they are with at the start of the callout. We are told how important this is during training, and get reminders at group meetings from time to time, but it's not exactly rocket science to remember once told.

I think some people seem to forget that we are all volunteers and this is supposed to be something the members enjoy doing the majority of the time. Because of this, we do not mind enduring a little short term hardship for the good of others when the chips are down, but at the end of the day we pay out a fair bit of money for the good of our communities and then want to have fun playing with all our toys for a legitimate and hopefully selfless assistance to other people when we are needed...
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2016
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Originally Posted by Chopper View Post
I can help the trustees out on that point.

I'm a member of two SAR teams. There's my home team, of which i am a full member and do most of my call puts.

Then there's the second team of which I am an associate member. This came about because I have family on their patch and spend a lot of time there. I noticed from Twitter that while is a in their patch there were jobs I could have helped with, including one less than a mile from where I was. I contacted their chairman and became an Associate Member. I don't train with them, don't do fundraising with them, and its up to me to make sure all my training and certification are kept up to date with my home team but I'm on their call out list and can and do attend their occasional job on their patch. The only concession from me is that I pay 20 annually to go on their insurance.

It works very well and is refreshingly easy in practice...IF people actually want to make it work. After all, if there's a major incident while I'm over there it would be wasteful and petty not to let me assist just because of politics and squabbling.

So now you know - other volunteer responder organisations do it, and do it well. All it takes is a willingness to make it happen.

The Police do it (off duty officers regularly make arrests on someone elses turf, done it myself on a few occasions over the years). In extreme weather or national emergency the Police report to their nearest station, regardless of which Force they work for or where their home station may be. So do Ambo (ditto - they're not going to let someone die just because they're on someone elses patch enjoying an ice cream), and so do SAR. The end-game is assisting the public, and anything that gets in the way of that goal should be dismissed, overcome or eliminated.

Richard

That's all very sensible stuff and works because ALSAR have a set level of training and accreditations across the board however because our organisation has grown organically with out central direction or administration each team operates in very different ways. I have noticed this on several instances when we have worked with other 4x4r groups and its unfortunately not just the little things!

There is no way of knowing that a responder from (for the sake of argument) kent will have the same skills, levels of training, competences or equipment carried as a responder from Carlisle and here lies the problem.

We train regularly with our local SAR group and have tried to emulate some of the key skills and practices, infact all of our police vetted members have the opportunity to go through a search tec's course with KSAR .. this gives the team the edge when responding to a SAR callout as they know exactly whats expected of them.

I would have no issue welcoming members of other groups if I knew they had been trained and operated to the same standard as my team, thats not to say I think my team is superior to any other, it is purely because as a trustee and officer of the group I have the confidence in my guys and their training to know that if anything untoward should happen I can back them 100% knowing they have followed the training as set out in the members manual and followed correct procedure.

unfortunately its about mitigating risk and liability for me, my members and my user agencies.
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2016
nigel leyland nigel leyland is offline
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Clive, you have effectively cited socialising, communications and events as benefits......no reason a Group cannot extend those to fellow Responders, it's been done across the country for long enough.

James, Your concern is training and competency. I refer you to " ...3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers) ..." Liability mitigated!
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2016
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Chris Paul m3dic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel leyland View Post
Clive, you have effectively cited socialising, communications and events as benefits......no reason a Group cannot extend those to fellow Responders, it's been done across the country for long enough.

James, Your concern is training and competency. I refer you to " ...3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers) ..." Liability mitigated!
I have to be honest Nigel I see the pros and very little cons to being allowed to join more than one group.

If both groups use the national policy there is no conflict as it's well the same policy.

You say there is no reason why the benefits of the other group couldn't be extended well yes quite but in reality unless you are an actual responder for that group you are unlikely to be be afforded these. I am not even sure how my group affords these things to other groups if they even do.

SE4X4R only let their members on their forum (I know the reason why just using it to make a point) so there isn't a way a single responder could benefit from their training/social etc unless they were also a member of them as well.

It's not always black and white. I think responders who are happy to give their time to both groups and pay the memberships of both groups then they should be given support not questioned as to why they would want to.
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2016
Richard Jewell Chopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel leyland View Post
So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

.
Quite simply as per my example above - I live in one SAR teams area, but spend substantial amounts of time on another SAR teams area.
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Last edited by Chopper; 12-01-2016 at 08:48 PM.
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