Membership of more than one team

[Chris Paul]

Surely it would be a choice thing? If a responder wants to be a full responder for more than one group and understand they need to pay and be active etc why not let them and actively allow it?

[Simon Bentley]

Originally Posted by m3dic

Surely it would be a choice thing? If a responder wants to be a full responder for more than one group and understand they need to pay and be active etc why not let them and actively allow it?

Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B.

[Clive Slade]

Originally Posted by Simon Bentley

Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B. There

Surely the only reason a person would join more than one group is that the first group is not doing enough to keep them busy... so the chances of availibilty issues is almost nil, and even if they did get a clash, it's no different to them being out shopping etc and unable to attend a call out anyway, its just just in this case they are on another call out with another club.

Surely the only real issue is being double insured, so you could end up with the two insurers arguing over who should pay out. So basically it is very important that if you are with two groups, and for some reason you are on a call with both, you must choose and stick to working with the same group for the entire call out.

We are with other non-related clubs, all of which have public liability insurance, and also have it with our business insurance, and house insurance, in fact I sometimes wonder just how many times my wife and I are insured for the same event should the worst happen. The thing is, if a ferret mauls an old lady and steals her dentures, I wouldn't think of claiming I was out with 4x4Response... now which ferret club could prove interesting!

[Chris Paul]

Originally Posted by Simon Bentley

Because it complicates availability reporting etc if the responder (inevitabily) forgets to inform Group A that he has been deployed by team B. There

Sorry I don't agree as Clive said it would be the same as if you were on holiday etc.

If both groups were to be deployed to the same incident (which would be rare as I am sure one would be deployed and ask for mutual aid from the other) as long as they were an active responder and were working to the rules of the group they were responding for where is the issue?

Some groups are incredibly social and do social days/nights away if a responder was a member of two groups there is an instant benefit.

Can I ask is it currently not allowed by 4x4Response UK or is it just up to the individual groups?

[Simon Bentley]

Individual groups make the call.

Operationally availability depends how groups collate, for instance Yorkshire have an online system for responders to indicate their availability for up to 2 weeks (just upped from 1 week) ahead, other groups use sms responder (or similar) and ask at the point of need.

If groups were to extend social and event support type invites to neighbouring groups then the non callout arrangements would not require membership of more than one group and operationally mutual support arrangements could cover responders living in border areas (YR does this with Mitts for a NHS trust that straddles the border).

[nigel leyland]

It's not often I isit thee boards these days, let alone post. So you can take that as just how exasperated I am to find this old chestnut still being debated all these years later!

Given the following:
1. You are a registered/qualified Responder.
2. You are covered by either the RUK4x4 or your own Groups Ins policy.
3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers)

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

Given that doing so would:

1. Possibly incur a double insurance premium.
2. Definitely corrupt head count statistics nationally.
3. Likely promote confusion for controllers at the most demanding call out periods.

If there is some benefit to be gained from multiple membership for Group or individual Responder please enlighten us.....

[Clive Slade]

Originally Posted by nigel leyland

It's not often I isit thee boards these days, let alone post. So you can take that as just how exasperated I am to find this old chestnut still being debated all these years later!

Given the following:
1. You are a registered/qualified Responder.
2. You are covered by either the RUK4x4 or your own Groups Ins policy.
3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers)

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

Given that doing so would:

1. Possibly incur a double insurance premium.
2. Definitely corrupt head count statistics nationally.
3. Likely promote confusion for controllers at the most demanding call out periods.

If there is some benefit to be gained from multiple membership for Group or individual Responder please enlighten us.....

Well the first benefit which is not exactly hard to see is, of being a member of multiple groups, means you get to be a member of their forum/news letters and events, so get to find out/indulge in group activities, which may not actually be dirrectly related to actual call outs, E.G. training and socialising. We do lots of community related events with SE4x4R, which are not anything to do with group statistics or confusing a controller. A decent 4x4R group is not all about callouts, its about socialising, getting to know your team members and learning who has your back before things get needy. Some people may want to indulge in the activities of multiple groups, especially when living on or near group boarders, or as I have seen, being in a group that does not really do anything, so want to be a member of a neighbouring group that is highly active.

Lets face it, the overall point for doing 4x4R is to help out in dire situations but get some enjoyment out of doing it, otherwise what is the point of all the associated costs of being a member, like clothing, lights, etc, I would be better off donating the money I have spent directly to a charity and saving myself the hassle.

With regards to statistics... whoopy do... who really cares if some statistician gets his/her numbers wrong, nothing new there! We are volunteers, with no contractual obligations, so the best you can ever do is make a guess at how many are actually available at any specific moment in time anyway.

So really it comes down to just one thing, as far as I can see... insurance... which can be resolved by just choosing a group to respond to for a specific event, and only working for that group controller for the duration of that event. In Kent, this happens regularly with joint callouts between KSAR and SE4X4R, where there are several people who are joint members of both groups, but have to choose who they are with at the start of the callout. We are told how important this is during training, and get reminders at group meetings from time to time, but it's not exactly rocket science to remember once told.

I think some people seem to forget that we are all volunteers and this is supposed to be something the members enjoy doing the majority of the time. Because of this, we do not mind enduring a little short term hardship for the good of others when the chips are down, but at the end of the day we pay out a fair bit of money for the good of our communities and then want to have fun playing with all our toys for a legitimate and hopefully selfless assistance to other people when we are needed...

[Richard Jewell]

Originally Posted by nigel leyland

So why would you need or want to join a second Group?

.

Quite simply as per my example above - I live in one SAR teams area, but spend substantial amounts of time on another SAR teams area.

[nigel leyland]

Clive, you have effectively cited socialising, communications and events as benefits......no reason a Group cannot extend those to fellow Responders, it's been done across the country for long enough.

James, Your concern is training and competency. I refer you to " ...3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers) ..." Liability mitigated!

[Chris Paul]

Originally Posted by nigel leyland

Clive, you have effectively cited socialising, communications and events as benefits......no reason a Group cannot extend those to fellow Responders, it's been done across the country for long enough.

James, Your concern is training and competency. I refer you to " ...3. There is a mutual aid policy which includes temporary "Responder loan".(requiring only an information exchange between controllers) ..." Liability mitigated!

I have to be honest Nigel I see the pros and very little cons to being allowed to join more than one group.

If both groups use the national policy there is no conflict as it's well the same policy.

You say there is no reason why the benefits of the other group couldn't be extended well yes quite but in reality unless you are an actual responder for that group you are unlikely to be be afforded these. I am not even sure how my group affords these things to other groups if they even do.

SE4X4R only let their members on their forum (I know the reason why just using it to make a point) so there isn't a way a single responder could benefit from their training/social etc unless they were also a member of them as well.

It's not always black and white. I think responders who are happy to give their time to both groups and pay the memberships of both groups then they should be given support not questioned as to why they would want to.