Membership fees?

[John Hudson]

quote name='Alasdair Kirk'

A fantastic thread - thank you Nigel for posting it, and a big thank you John for responding how you did without emotively charging in - not easy, but done well!



Alasdair



I thought it was all going fairly well until now...



[quote name='Simon Bentley' date='16 January 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1263640028' post='10362']

This is a subject that I continue to see cropping up all over the internet, sneering sideliners with nothing better to do finding any and every excuse to knock things - pretty day to day internet forum activity really, whatever the subject.

[/quote]



sneering sideliners... well as the only person posting negative comment here I guess that's aimed at me?

Besides all the associated costs of running 4x4 response I really do think a membership fee shows some dedication. It's always amazing how much interest there is during a major incident like the recent snow and ice and the floods of 2007 but its how many of those that translate to real dedicated members that really matters.



When YL first formed (then Humber-Yorks)in early 2007 we weren't exactly inundated with people wanting to join but when the floods came the membership was boosted massively. But looking back the bulk of those that joined during that time have since failed to renew.

When exactly do you think/expect people to come forward and volunteer? Generally people respond to something - on the whole no-one cared about Haiti last week, but now they do? Does that make the donation and volunteers helping there now any less important or welcome? Does it really matter what their motives if they are able to actually make a difference out there?



Does it really matter if they dont subsequently turn up to a weekly/monthly meeting or even dont renew in a following year? I'm sure if push came to shove they'd be there to help you next time??? Or does the lack of club commitement mean that their help would no longer be welcome?

I think John that you have misconstrued what people meant by the wannabees. Not wannabee members, but they wannabee charging around with beacons ablaze rescuing people and wannabe seen as an emergency service etc and just aren't interested in the general run of the mill logistical support that 4x4 Response is really about. Simply replacing conventional transport so that people and services can get through and continue as near to normal service as possible is very much our main function across the network. Sure there are some more active jobs too, recovering ambulances, evacuating people from a variety of places and scenarios etc. But anyway my experience is its these wannabe heroes that don't rejoin when they realise the reality of 4x4 response but they are the first to come out of the woodwork when it rains or snows.

No Simon, I havent misconstrued anything in regards to wannabees.



There are people that do and there are people that want to sit around in meeting and organise and discuss... sadly clubs can generally be full of the latter and to be honest that does nothing to light my fire.

The other argument I hear is it should be being paid for by the government - and yes it should - but who wants to pay extra taxes to fund services that are stood around doing nothing for much of the year.

As an unproven and untested group I think you'd be laughed out of town if you tried to get sponsorship from government, but off the back of events like we have recently seen, I'm sure you'd have a really good conversation starter if you arranged to go and talk to those local emergency planning officer, etc, you'd just been getting calls from. Yes money is tight everywhere, but you never know what they might be able to do until you ask.

[Pete Restall]

I was trying to keep out of this conversation, but it's got to the point where I feel I have to add my bit.



[quote name='John Hudson' date='16 January 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1263671379' post='10440']



When exactly do you think/expect people to come forward and volunteer? Generally people respond to something - on the whole no-one cared about Haiti last week, but now they do? Does that make the donation and volunteers helping there now any less important or welcome? Does it really matter what their motives if they are able to actually make a difference out there?



Does it really matter if they dont subsequently turn up to a weekly/monthly meeting or even dont renew in a following year? I'm sure if push came to shove they'd be there to help you next time??? Or does the lack of club commitement mean that their help would no longer be welcome?[/quote]



Sounds to me like you're just like far too many people around, more than willing to sit back and let others put in all the hard work, making it easy for you to be able to turn up for the glory bits.



And don't get me wrong, we don't mind putting in the hours to make sure this type of service can be provided, and if pushed, and if the need arose, I'm sure you would get called out even if your membership had expired.







[quote name='John Hudson' date='16 January 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1263671379' post='10440']

As an unproven and untested group I think you'd be laughed out of town if you tried to get sponsorship from government, but off the back of events like we have recently seen, I'm sure you'd have a really good conversation starter if you arranged to go and talk to those local emergency planning officer, etc, you'd just been getting calls from. Yes money is tight everywhere, but you never know what they might be able to do until you ask.

[/quote]



As obviously you haven't got a clue about how all this works, the reason we are being called out isn't because the emergency planning officers found our number in the yellow pages, it's because people have been putting in the effort to arrange meetings with the aforementioned emergency planning officers, as well as lots of other organizations that could benefit from from our help, arranging all the paper work to ensure call outs are carried out properly, spent the time and effort putting systems in place to ensure that we can supply what's needed to keep our local communities running.



Finally if you do end up getting called to help, so that people can see you driving around in your big 4x4 doing something good for a change, just spare a thought for the people sitting in front of a computer, organizing it all, who've spent most of the year putting hours of effort in just so you can get that call.



I haven't put this on here expecting a big pat on the back for what we do, we do it because we want to help, and we want to make a difference (All the time!!!).



Rant over, I'm outta here.

[Warren Dukes]

Alasdair



I thought it was all going fairly well until now...



[quote name='Simon Bentley' date='16 January 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1263640028' post='10362']

This is a subject that I continue to see cropping up all over the internet, sneering sideliners with nothing better to do finding any and every excuse to knock things - pretty day to day internet forum activity really, whatever the subject.

[/quote]



sneering sideliners... well as the only person posting negative comment here I guess that's aimed at me?

Besides all the associated costs of running 4x4 response I really do think a membership fee shows some dedication. It's always amazing how much interest there is during a major incident like the recent snow and ice and the floods of 2007 but its how many of those that translate to real dedicated members that really matters.



When YL first formed (then Humber-Yorks)in early 2007 we weren't exactly inundated with people wanting to join but when the floods came the membership was boosted massively. But looking back the bulk of those that joined during that time have since failed to renew.

When exactly do you think/expect people to come forward and volunteer? Generally people respond to something - on the whole no-one cared about Haiti last week, but now they do? Does that make the donation and volunteers helping there now any less important or welcome? Does it really matter what their motives if they are able to actually make a difference out there?



Does it really matter if they dont subsequently turn up to a weekly/monthly meeting or even dont renew in a following year? I'm sure if push came to shove they'd be there to help you next time??? Or does the lack of club commitement mean that their help would no longer be welcome?

I think John that you have misconstrued what people meant by the wannabees. Not wannabee members, but they wannabee charging around with beacons ablaze rescuing people and wannabe seen as an emergency service etc and just aren't interested in the general run of the mill logistical support that 4x4 Response is really about. Simply replacing conventional transport so that people and services can get through and continue as near to normal service as possible is very much our main function across the network. Sure there are some more active jobs too, recovering ambulances, evacuating people from a variety of places and scenarios etc. But anyway my experience is its these wannabe heroes that don't rejoin when they realise the reality of 4x4 response but they are the first to come out of the woodwork when it rains or snows.

No Simon, I havent misconstrued anything in regards to wannabees.



There are people that do and there are people that want to sit around in meeting and organise and discuss... sadly clubs can generally be full of the latter and to be honest that does nothing to light my fire.

The other argument I hear is it should be being paid for by the government - and yes it should - but who wants to pay extra taxes to fund services that are stood around doing nothing for much of the year.

As an unproven and untested group I think you'd be laughed out of town if you tried to get sponsorship from government, but off the back of events like we have recently seen, I'm sure you'd have a really good conversation starter if you arranged to go and talk to those local emergency planning officer, etc, you'd just been getting calls from. Yes money is tight everywhere, but you never know what they might be able to do until you ask.

[/quote]







Actually John, the "sneering sideliners" comment was aimed more at comments made on a separate Land Rover based forum. If memory serves I believe the thread included a comment along the lines of "a bunch of idiots dicking around in Land Rovers with flashing lights". Forgive me if I didn't get the quote exactly right, but I'm pretty sure that is what Simon was alluding to. I would concede though, that as a non-member you would not have been able to know that.



I'm not going to repeat what others have said in reply to your other comments, save to say that 4X4 Response is neither untried nor untested; having been included in the Emergency Plans of a number of County Councils for some years now and also having been included in recent multi-agency exercises and as such are well recognised amongst most EPO's, Police Forces, Ambulance Services and Health Authorities across the country.

[John Hudson]

[quote name='WarrenWE02' date='16 January 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1263681556' post='10464']

I'm not going to repeat what others have said in reply to your other comments, save to say that 4X4 Response is neither untried nor untested; having been included in the Emergency Plans of a number of County Councils for some years now and also having been included in recent multi-agency exercises and as such are well recognised amongst most EPO's, Police Forces, Ambulance Services and Health Authorities across the country.[/i]

[/quote]



Warren, sorry maybe I didnt get my point across on this one, it wasnt that you ARE untried and untested but that at some point you would have been. With all of the above agencies planning with you in mind and having now had to act upon those plans, now would be a good time to talk to them about funding, training, sponsorship, etc (what ever it is that's needed) while its all fresh in their heads.





I'm not interesting in mud slinging, none of you actually know me so no-one here is in any position to judge me. This was an open thread, for an open discussion, as the only non-member to find this and post here I thought you might have found an alternative view useful - it seems some of you have.





The one thing I have noticed from a large number of these posting is that a good number of you have a real problem with others wanting to help, theres much talk of people sealing limelight, wannabees, nutters with flashing lights and florecent jackets. It really doesnt do you any favours and really reflects badly on you. It takes all sorts of people to run a group like this and you'll need all sorts of skills. Personally I have no interest in pressing the flesh with politicians, planning isnt my strong point and I'd much rather be doing than talking, but if your tallent is meeting, planning, organising then great. If you are one of the few that gets the local EPO on side then fantastic! but what's it all about? Is it about being the 5th/6th or 7th emergency service or is it about making a difference to real people when it matters? If it is, then you can't do that on your own you need a lot of indians on the ground to help you... and does it make any difference at all it you only see some of those indians when the poo hits the fan? If those indians are see as heros to a few does it really matter when you're still the chief?

[Pete Restall]

[quote name='John Hudson' date='16 January 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1263686298' post='10470']

The one thing I have noticed from a large number of these posting is that a good number of you have a real problem with others wanting to help, theres much talk of people sealing limelight, wannabees, nutters with flashing lights and florecent jackets. It really doesnt do you any favours and really reflects badly on you. It takes all sorts of people to run a group like this and you'll need all sorts of skills. Personally I have no interest in pressing the flesh with politicians, planning isnt my strong point and I'd much rather be doing than talking, but if your tallent is meeting, planning, organising then great. If you are one of the few that gets the local EPO on side then fantastic! but what's it all about? Is it about being the 5th/6th or 7th emergency service or is it about making a difference to real people when it matters? If it is, then you can't do that on your own you need a lot of indians on the ground to help you... and does it make any difference at all it you only see some of those indians when the poo hits the fan? If those indians are see as heros to a few does it really matter when you're still the chief?

[/quote]



Shouldn't really be replying again, but hey ho.



Nothing wrong with people wanting to help, nothing wrong with people turning up to help when the "poo hits the fan".



And back to where this originally started.



Something wrong with someone who doesn't want to pay £20.00 a year towards helping a group pay for insurance, training, equipment, stickers for members, newsletters along with a mass of other things.



If groups don't charge membership, then where does the money come from to pay for all these items, or are the people who do spend all the time and effort running these groups expected to put their hands in their pockets.



OK, you don't want to organize the day to day running of a group, and you'd much rather be doing, how about you actually join a group and then DO some fund raising, then if you do a good enough job you wouldn't need to pay a membership fee.



Finally, and this is finally for me, nothing wrong with turning up and helping out when needed, but bitching about the way things are run and having to pay a small fee to help cover running costs, enough said!!!

[Warren Dukes]

[quote name='John Hudson' date='16 January 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1263686298' post='10470']

[quote name='WarrenWE02' date='16 January 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1263681556' post='10464']

I'm not going to repeat what others have said in reply to your other comments, save to say that 4X4 Response is neither untried nor untested; having been included in the Emergency Plans of a number of County Councils for some years now and also having been included in recent multi-agency exercises and as such are well recognised amongst most EPO's, Police Forces, Ambulance Services and Health Authorities across the country.[/i]

[/quote]



Warren, sorry maybe I didnt get my point across on this one, it wasnt that you ARE untried and untested but that at some point you would have been. With all of the above agencies planning with you in mind and having now had to act upon those plans, now would be a good time to talk to them about funding, training, sponsorship, etc (what ever it is that's needed) while its all fresh in their heads.





I'm not interesting in mud slinging, none of you actually know me so no-one here is in any position to judge me. This was an open thread, for an open discussion, as the only non-member to find this and post here I thought you might have found an alternative view useful - it seems some of you have.





The one thing I have noticed from a large number of these posting is that a good number of you have a real problem with others wanting to help, theres much talk of people sealing limelight, wannabees, nutters with flashing lights and florecent jackets. It really doesnt do you any favours and really reflects badly on you. It takes all sorts of people to run a group like this and you'll need all sorts of skills. Personally I have no interest in pressing the flesh with politicians, planning isnt my strong point and I'd much rather be doing than talking, but if your tallent is meeting, planning, organising then great. If you are one of the few that gets the local EPO on side then fantastic! but what's it all about? Is it about being the 5th/6th or 7th emergency service or is it about making a difference to real people when it matters? If it is, then you can't do that on your own you need a lot of indians on the ground to help you... and does it make any difference at all it you only see some of those indians when the poo hits the fan? If those indians are see as heros to a few does it really matter when you're still the chief?

[/quote]

John, valid points and well presented.



I think part of the problem with an open forum discussion is precisely that it is open... a bit of a conundrum really as it allows those "in the know" and those "who think they are in the know" (not the most elegant way of describing my point but it's late) to contradict each other whilst purporting to represent the same side of the argument. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a small number of posters on here who have put heart and soul into getting 4X4R off the ground over a number of years and strive for it be recognised as a credible organisation. To their credit (and lots of long hours in the background) it's starting to happen nationally. Like you, I'm not really one for the photo opportunity and 'pressing the flesh', but it does have it's place and we need those who are suited to that role just as much as you or I who are far happier behind the wheel as 'grunts on the ground'.

In summary, please don't dismiss us as an arrogant bunch. We're not really, but some of the guys are quite defensive when they think they are being devalued. Keep an eye on the forum and maybe join us for a pint at a local meeting sometime soon. I suspect we will find a lot in common...



Cheers Warren

[Simon Bentley]

Actually John, the "sneering sideliners" comment was aimed more at comments made on a separate Land Rover based forum. If memory serves I believe the thread included a comment along the lines of "a bunch of idiots dicking around in Land Rovers with flashing lights". Forgive me if I didn't get the quote exactly right, but I'm pretty sure that is what Simon was alluding to. I would concede though, that as a non-member you would not have been able to know that.

Yes sorry John, Warren is correct it was not aimed at you but at various people on some of the big 4x4 forums.

[Tony Ferrari]

On the subject of what you get for your money, that which can be directly attributable to a single member:



Third Party Liability Insurance £2.10

Membership card approximately £1.00



That's £3.10 then.



Less attributable costs are:



Proportion of National Membership, £25 divided by number of Members (30 at present so about 84p - this will obviously change in time)



Newsletter (free for most as sent online but members without internet access get printed/posted copies - about £1 per member per year)



Postage, packing and printing for membership pack (again less for some as some is sent online and many collect ID cards etc at the monthly meet about £1 per member)



Cost of running our website about £2.99 and Domain name purchase about 27p



So that looks like £9.20.



So it looks like we are making a surplus of 80p per member



But.....



In the near future we will be holding our AGM which requires the hire of a venue (we have outgrown the pub and competing with the Darts team is not ideal!) Cost of that about £1.40



So we are up to £10.60



Then the intention is to give every member a couple of stickers when the become a responder (never been able to afford it before) about £1



Then I have a plan for a comprehensive member's handbook in a ring binder; cost about £4



So we are now up to £15.60 per member



Yet our membership fee is only £10.



And then there are the further plans...



Training? which even at it's most basic level will require the hire of a venue.



Hi Vis vests for members for use in the summer



More uniform e.g. polo shirts, t-shirts



Fundraising equipment (display stands, an E-Z Up, collecting boxes) OK so if we raise money it will help but we will need a lot of these up front. And then they will need insuring against loss.

[Simon Bentley]

[quote name='Alasdair Kirk' date='16 January 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1263642067' post='10370']

[quote name='Simon Bentley' date='16 January 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1263640028' post='10362']

The other argument I hear is it should be being paid for by the government - and yes it should - but who wants to pay extra taxes to fund services that are stood around doing nothing for much of the year.

[/quote]



I don't mind it being paid for by Government - they seem to have lots of our money

however this is a dangerous one - because experience shows that they want to then control it...



now, I am sure that we get lots of things wrong, but I do feel that had we left this to Government the response over the last few weeks would not have been so good...

ah yes - we are here because Government has already failed to provide...

don't get me started on Police Forces with 4x4s they are not allowed to drive in 4x4 mode as they are not trained - have even been told that the trainers tell the police that they can't drive their landrovers in 4x4 mode because they are not trained - presumably these are some of the only 2 wheel drive landrovers around



but back to topic - happy that we get funding, but we shouldn't give up the control we already have...



Alasdair

[/quote]



I was meaning more that 4x4 Response shouldn't be necessary as suitable facilities ad arrangements should be in place, paid fro by the public purse - but as I say who wants to pay extra taxes to cover these things - and I'll bet the detractors would be the last to pay.

[nigel leyland]

I think we are starting to go a tad off topic now but it is still relevent, in so much that.....I very much doubt if most of our members are fully aware of exactly what goes on behind the scenes.....the hours and hours of meetings, paperwork, liasons, planning both within the group, with EPO's, with Blue light services, and yes with Cabinet Ministers too!



So it is reasonable to assume therefore that non-members simply could not be expectede to fully comrehend what is involve in time, effort and expense......which is why I have started this thread and particularly why I have posted it on a board that none members can access.



We need to help others to be able to better understand.....and that really is I think our next big challange!



We're finally getting through to the EPO's Police Cabinat Ministers etc....but we need to make sure that those who would like to help can get all the information they require to make an educated descision to join us or not...and answer any questions they ask. At the end of the day we may not be what an individual expected and may not wish to join, better for all to find that out early!



Alasdair has some irons in the fire which may well go a fair way to achieving better understanding but probably the best approach in this area is the one that has served us well thus far....meeting with people and conversing with them.



Nigel.